Plan on Your Plan not Going According to Plan

Plan on Your Plan Not Going According to Plan- The Most Overlooked Variable in Financial Planning

As we unveil our newest WealthBuilders episode: "Plan on Your Plan not Going According to Plan" it might prompt you to question the use of "plan" in the title three times . And just like that, you’re engaged — because indeed, in the realm of financial planning, redundancy isn’t just a concept; it’s a critical strategy.

In this episode, we deconstruct the conventional disdain for redundancy and highlight its pivotal role in safeguarding your financial journey. Airplanes are the perfect metaphor here — with multiple fail-safes to protect against the unforeseen, they represent the epitome of meticulous planning. Similarly, in finance, creating redundancy means crafting a buffer against life's unpredictable nature.

We dive into the art and science of financial planning, balancing precise calculations with the flexibility to manage life's inevitable uncertainties. With discussions on the practicality of emergency funds, the wisdom of diversification, and the power of saving without a fixed purpose, this episode is a comprehensive guide to incorporating room for error into your financial strategy.

Here's a glimpse of the rich insights this episode offers:

1. 🛫 The Wisdom of Redundancy: Why planning for the unexpected isn't pessimistic, it's pragmatic.
2. 🛡️ Room for Error: How a buffer can transform uncertainty from a threat into an opportunity.
3. 🔄 Mitigate Stress: The psychological benefits of having a financial cushion.
4. 📈 Avoid High-Risk Pitfalls: Steering clear of strategies that promise the moon but could land you in the dust.
5. 🚀 Incorporating Room for Error: Actionable steps to build resilience into your financial plan.

The path to financial freedom isn't a sprint; it's a marathon with its own set of hurdles. This episode is your playbook for enduring and thriving amidst the financial race of life.

Make sure to like and subscribe if you enjoyed the show!

For more information on StatonWalsh please visit, StatonWalsh


This podcast is for informational purposes only. Although the information has been gathered from sources believed to be reliable, please note that individual situations can vary. Therefore, the information should be relied upon only when coordinated with individual professional advice. StatonWalsh and Founder’s Financial Securities do not provide tax, legal, or accounting advice. Consult your tax, legal, or accounting professional regarding your individual situation.

Ryan Staton is an Investment Advisor of, and securities offered through, Founders Financial Securities, LLCMember FINRA/SIPC and Registered Investment Advisor.

Devin Walsh is an Investment Advisor of, and securities offered through, Founders Financial Securities, LLCMember FINRA/SIPC and Registered Investment Advisor.

Check the background of this firm on http://brokercheck.finra.org/

Transcript

Intro (00:00):

This is Wealth Builders presented by StatonWalsh, a show designed to pull back the curtain of the financial industry and bring true transparency to the forefront of conversation on the show. We cover topics like financial education, current events, and interview business leaders and industry experts with the ultimate goal of helping listeners discover their own path to financial independence.

Devin Walsh (00:38):

Hello everyone, and welcome to this week's episode of Wealth Builders this week. This is going to sound like a little bit of a mouthful here, Ryan, but we're going to be talking about plan on your plan, not going according to plan, talk about being redundant. This was something that you put together last week and you wrote a great article on it, and I just really wanted to touch base on this. So let's talk about that and talk about redundancy and financial planning and some of the most overlooked variables in financial planning.

Ryan Staton (01:11):

Yeah, so I think that was the title of the blog posts that I put together was intentional. I think one of the things that people look at is when they're planning in general, they tend to look at certain elements of financial planning as redundant or repetitive or unnecessary. And so you hear a lot of different opinions on those types of things. And I think really the point I was trying to get across is that redundancy is not a bad thing, especially when used for good. I think there's also some level of creativity that needs to go into the conversation around planning and not overlooking the small stuff. Most people want to be high level. A lot of people and some not all have interest in the technicalities of financial planning. They want to talk about the markets and they want to talk about movements of money and predict predictability and what's going to happen. And I think at the beginning when you're building a foundation of planning, you're basically just making sure you can stay in the game is what it really boils down to. And so the blog post talks a little bit about some of those elements and we can unpack those in more detail, but I think that from the top there is some safety in redundancy. And so we'll talk about that and I'll put the finer points to that as we go through the episode today.

Devin Walsh (02:45):

So we're talking about financial planning. Sometimes you hear, oh, we do financial planning for a living. It can be intimidating. And some of the things that you've mentioned in the past is the building blocks, the ABCs of financial planning. So let's talk about what is financial planning, break it down, what is the premise of it and what are the typical components?

Ryan Staton (03:05):

Yeah, the premise, I mean, as you know, and we are as a firm, big baseball guys, I always like to use the foundational element of planning. It's the singles and doubles we're trying to manufacture runs over a period of time, over a nine innings, which is our financial planning life. And we're trying to score runs and win at the end of the game. There are going to be great instances of that and they're going to be somewhere life may throw you a curve ball. And so the premise of planning really is building a plan that involves setting clear objectives. You're going to manage things like income and expenses, and really what you're trying to do is make informed decisions along the way to help reach each financial milestone that you set for yourself. And so as we know, life is not a straight line. Life does not exist in a vacuum.

(03:59):

Things happen. There's a lot of randomness that we overlook in the process of planning. And so one of the things I talk about in the blog post is that we as humans, we overlook the finer details and we will discard certain things because we believe there's some kind of improbable, what if like, oh, that's not going to happen to me. Something we hear a lot. This is not relevant to my life. The reality is that when you don't acknowledge the fact that there is some level of uncertainty, randomness and chance in everyday life, you're setting yourself up for failure. And we are victims of our own predisposition to believe that everything can be predicted or that things in life are precise. It doesn't work that way. I think we all have instances of that. And so occasionally we're going to run into some snags and if we build in the ability to weather that or to stay in the game, ultimately we'll have some more time on the other side to rebuild and get back to the basics and really focus on those singles and doubles as opposed to trying to hit home runs all the time.

Devin Walsh (05:14):

So Ryan, you're trying to tell me financial planning is not a 90 mile per hour fastball to Gunner Henderson every time. The predictability

Ryan Staton (05:20):

That would be nice

Devin Walsh (05:21):

For which I knew you never threw in your baseball crew.

Ryan Staton (05:26):

No, nothing.

(05:28):

I think that nothing is linear that we do. I think, like I said, we all have instances of that life is a little crazy. We all have our own stories. My career and our career and our history as a business as much like that, it was not a linear path. There was a lot of different ideas and things that you try out, some work, some don't. Eventually you kind of find your groove and then you stick to that for a little while until something else changes. And I don't think that planning in general, financial planning aside, just planning for anything in general, we're always building for contingencies. I have two small children every time we leave the house, you check the diaper bag, do we have diapers? What happens if if they get messy? Do we have wipes in the bag? These seem like elementary things, like things that are not a big deal.

(06:21):

Yeah, that comes inherently. That's called being prepared. But for some reason, a part of our brain when we talk about financial planning turns off that same element of planning and trying to be prepared. And so it's an interesting study of just human psychology. And so throughout the article I talk about some of those things and there's all kinds of research and all kinds of books and things like that out there that really focus on the difference that the different approach that we take as human beings when it comes to planning with money versus planning with pretty much anything else in life.

Devin Walsh (07:00):

So when we're talking about redundancy, obviously the reason you named this article the Way you did in this podcast episode, the reason we're doing this is to really create a point about redundancy. Redundancy is a lot of times might not necessarily always seem like a good thing, but when we're talking about financial planning, like you said, doing the singles and doubles of financial planning, the redundancy, whether that's saving money every month, whatever that may be, you made a great point about some of the things that are redundant in our life. And one of the points I love that you made is talking about the modern airplane and the redundant systems in case there's ever a failure on the board, something happened in the flight, something that's not just you're flying across the United States of America as an easy flight, there might be something that goes wrong and being prepared for those things. So how does that relate to financial planning and what are some of that room for error that we can create in our lives to help prevent or minimalize some things that might not always go right in our financial plan lives?

Ryan Staton (08:02):

So the two central themes of this article are around redundancy and the fact that there is some wisdom in redundancy. And then also that redundancy in some cases provides room for error. It acknowledges uncertainty, it acknowledges randomness, it acknowledges chance. And so the wisdom in redundancy, the example that I used in modern air travel is that most airplanes, for example, have different backup systems. So a normal commercial airliner has somewhere between three and four redundant electrical systems on board, meaning they all do the same thing, but they are designed under the premise that anything that can break ultimately will break at some point. And so as a result of that, we need to have backups so that we're not stuck in the sky without the ability to, let's say an airplane. The same is true for flight. I mean you can fly an airplane with one engine in most cases.

(09:04):

And some other interesting facts for anyone that cares about airplanes and redundancies that every time you land an airplane, we always get that jolt where they kind of do the reverse thrust forward. Most airplanes are designed to be able to land and stop just on the braking system alone without the help of that reverse thrust system. So what does all that matter? The reality is that those are redundancies and things that we may see or do every single day. Air travel flying places, it's much more common these days and it's certainly something we probably don't think about. We just have an inherent trust that air travel is safe. But that's one of the reasons why is that there is planning involved in every flight. There's a contingency in the air path that you're taking the flight path, for example. So there's so much that goes into it, but all we really do is we say, how long is it going to take me to get from here to my next destination?

(10:01):

And we go online and we buy a ticket and we trust that the airlines got the rest of that stuff figured out. And so there's some mindlessness to that. But there are things that happen behind the scenes that we don't think about and we don't know that take into account chance, randomness risk. And so from a financial planning perspective, the relationship there is that there has to be room for error. That example is just one of many. But when we're translating that to financial planning, really we're talking about removing the concept of a single point of failure. So what does that mean? We don't want there to be a situation where we only have one strategy, single points of failure cause disasters. And so in financial planning, a single point of failure example would be, let's say a sole reliance on a paycheck to fund short-term spending and having basically no savings.

(10:58):

So think I don't have a savings account and I live paycheck to paycheck. And ultimately that's going to create a gap between what I think my expenses are and what they might be in the future. I think the single point of failure there is I lose my job. I don't have the ability to work anymore. Those things, the chance, randomness, uncertainty, life throws me that curve ball. And now because I have not planned for those things up the creek without a paddle so to speak. And so single points of failure happen in a lot of different areas of financial planning, people taking unnecessary risk with certain types of investments for example. And there's all kinds of examples of this in practical life as well. So

Devin Walsh (11:44):

Reality is outline things like, sorry to interrupt, but things like one of the first things we talk about in our plan process is protection, estate planning, insurance protection. You think everybody expects we're going to live to a hundred, right? But we see all the time one in four people become disabled in a lifetime, early deaths, whatever that may be. You talked about losing your job. There's all these things along the way that should be simple fixes that we need to look at to get to that end journey.

Ryan Staton (12:13):

And I think that that goes back to my point of us writing off certain things as improbable what ifs. You mentioned a statistical disability. So from basically one in four people age 25 today, one in four of those people, 25% will have a long-term disability event at some point, meaning you are out of work for an extended period of time doing an injury, illness, whatever it may be. Now some people may look at that and say, well, I think I'm part of the 75%, so I'm just going to ignore that. And ultimately they may know someone that has gone through some of those things. And so it is not a requirement to build those safety nets, but it is certainly something that's going to help you increase your probability of success. And so again, single points of failure. I mean our biggest for most Americans, your biggest wealth creating asset is your ability to earn a paycheck.

(13:14):

And that gets overlooked. And people think building wealth is taking money, investing it in the market. My rate of return is ultimate or the appreciation on my assets, that's my wealth building activity. But they overlook the fact that in order to have that money to create the wealth in the first place, you have to show up and do something. You have to earn that cash. And so I think it's just a shift of, hey, how the world really works in financial planning. And here are some areas where I have exposures or potential single points of failure to the point of the article and how do I insulate myself from that? And if I never end up needing them, big deal, I had some redundancy or I had some unnecessary safety net. But it typically is worse to not have it than to have it and never use it.

(14:07):

I mean, I think we can all agree to that. If we go back to the airplane example, if we have one electrical system on board and that fails and now we have no ability to control an airplane, that situation ends up a lot worse than if we get through flight. Nothing ever happens, but we had four backups to keep us safe. So I think it's a shift in thought process is really what this all boils down to is looking at the way we plan and everything else in our life and also applying some of those principles to how we view and talk about financial planning.

Devin Walsh (14:40):

So we're talking about the importance of room for error, right? Something that we talk a lot about is the delicate balance between art and science, financial planning. There really is the science behind it and there's also the art behind it. Every situation is different. So how do we balance between two of those to create that room for error when our life doesn't go exactly as planned when things pop up throughout life?

Ryan Staton (15:05):

I think most people listening to this would agree that life does not operate on mathematical predictions. I mean, there's probabilities that things are going to occur or not. But to say that going to the science side of it, financial planning involves your estimating income expenses, investment returns, a bunch of other financial variables crunch together to say, what's my probability of success? And I'm going to be able to retire or experience what I define as financial freedom for myself this many years down the line. And so a lot of people will hitch their self to that data wagon, so to speak. But as I said before, life doesn't adhere to your calculations. Things change. There are things that are like medical emergencies, people losing their jobs, economic disruption, economic downturns, even the most meticulously built plan. So fine tooth comb plan and going through every single thing, creating all these numbers, spreadsheets.

(16:06):

I mean you can have a financial plan that's 50 pages long. And the reality is that ultimately, if you don't have room for error, if you rely solely on those calculations and that data, you're going to leave yourself in a vulnerable position if things don't go according to whatever calculations or formula that you use to create that. And so room for error put another way is just accounting for uncertainty, accounting for all the things that happen. One of the things that I say in the article is that uncertainty is inevitable. You have to acknowledge the fact that you cannot predict all the financial challenges that you're going to face. And so the room for error is you basically saying, I'm going to put money away just because, not because I have some specific goal in mind, but because I know that I can't predict everything that's going to happen to me over the next.

(17:04):

In some cases, you look at someone entering the workforce in their early twenties, if they work, let's just say just until full social security, retirement age, whatever that may be for that demographic, they might be working for 40 years, 45, maybe 50 years. And so to predict what's going to happen in the next 50 years and claim that all the different variables that needed to be accounted for, I think it would be irresponsible to go down this path in that fashion. So I mean there's a lot a, you can unpack there, but acknowledgement of uncertainty is really the first step. And then the acknowledgement of that in the plan is that we're going to build in the fact that we may things this way, but we're going to need to adapt or we're going to need to adjust. Or even if we continue on this linear path for the next 40 years, the level of success that I see on paper today may not be realistic for me.

Devin Walsh (18:01):

So let's talk about incorporating four main areas to create a room for air in our plant. That's the first obviously is build an emergency fund. And I really feel like that solves a lot of issues. So everything in life, whether from losing the job you have, unexpected expense, having that emergency fund, and that's probably one of the biggest debates in our industry is how much should it be's? A one year salary is a six month expense is a six month salary. And I think everybody has a different view on that. But I think building that emergency fund really is one of the most important things that we can do for incorporating some type of room for air in our planning. Two is diversify investments when we're say don't take unreasonable risk, it really as simple as diversifying, what's your risk tolerance? What's the diversification? We can go across asset location, the type of assets we own from there.

(18:49):

And then finally is a saving. We always like to see people will save 15, 20% of their gross salary. So if we saving appropriately and do it consistently, we're talking about redundancy. Saving is in a redundant habit. If we say we're going to put this amount of money into our four K every month, all automatically comes to our paycheck, right? The company matches 5%, I put in 5%, that's redundant and we know it's happening. How do we create that redundancy by creating that emergency fund, creating that into a outside work, non-qualified retirement plan. And finally is review and adjust your plan regularly. So can you touch on each of those and how all those build into creating a room for error and is there a certain order into all of those that you think is best?

Ryan Staton (19:33):

Yeah, the true redundancy, just to clarify a point, there's a repetitive, I guess, muscle memory building activity to just savings in general. The redundancy comes down to spreading money around to multiple types of accounts with multiple purposes that will be relevant in multiple phases of life. And so for example, you used saving money into a cash account to build an emergency fund, and you're also going to be saving money into a retirement account. You also may be saving money into a brokerage account that'll be invested. You might save money into other vehicles. And so there are all these different financial products and types of accounts out there. And so the redundancy piece really is doing a lot of different things that ultimately look and feel the same and for the same purpose, but they may not all serve the same purpose at some point in your life, some may come in handy in different points in time while others you may never need or you may never need to approach.

(20:36):

And so that's really where we get into the concept of the redundancy piece. As far as some of the strategies that I talk about in terms of incorporating room for error, building an emergency fund like you mentioned, that's just an ultimate safety net. We call it an emergency end opportunity fund in our practice, which really means, hey, if something bad happens, this money is there for that. But also if something good presents itself, that can also be a source of funds that can be used for that purpose. And so that's one way that you can build room for error because you have a buffer building that fund of just readily accessible cash that is exposed to minimal or no risk that can be used for any purpose that you've seen that you deem fit at that particular point in time. So that's kind of phase one.

(21:25):

The other one, diversification that's really getting into this concept of spreading investments and accounts across different asset classes, different techs treatment, reducing exposure to what we refer to as concentrated financial risks, which really means don't have all your eggs in one basket, put your eggs in multiple baskets, watch them grow in different ways, and then that can really mitigate the impact of things like market volatility to your portfolio. If you take that a step further and you talk about diversification to different types of accounts that can reduce your risk to tax law change, for example. So there's a lot of merit to those first two. The third, and I think probably the most important, I kind of alluded to this earlier, is just saving in general. And saving is less about the type of account that you're doing and more about the action of saving.

(22:21):

There is power in realizing that you don't really need any particular reason to save. Just doing it for no reason at all is valuable for a lot of reasons. And so ultimately what we're looking at is again, building that redundancy in that we're having multiple accounts that serve multiple purposes that can serve as a backup. And the saving piece just for the purpose of saving is ultimately going to help you remove some of the unpredictable behaviors that we have or unpredictable events that occur in life. You never know exactly what you're going to need to save for. So saving in general and just saying, I'm just going to build up a bucket of money and I have no idea what I'm going to use it for, but I'm just going to get into the routine of doing it. I think that's definitely powerful and something that the strategy that you can use quite a bit. And the last piece is just reviewing and adjusting your plan regularly. So the,

Devin Walsh (23:22):

Go ahead, sorry.

Ryan Staton (23:23):

Yeah, I was going to say reviewing and adjusting regularly is really designed to help you get into a rhythm and a habit, a routine of looking at things on a regular basis. Sometimes people will build a financial plan, they'll build a budget, they'll build something related finances, they kind of look at it and then they step away from it. They do it as a one-time task, they step away from it and then they come back to it maybe a couple years down the line. And I think it's important that looking at these things on a regular basis will create good habits and also create a lot of consistency in your plan so that you're not being reactive, but you can inherently be proactive in some sense.

Devin Walsh (24:08):

I agree. I think overlooking a lot of these strategies, incorporating them into our life, going back to redundancy, doing these things on a consistent basis and one financial setback can really lead to a lot of stress and anxiety. And we see it all the time. People say, how can I get rich quick? There's really no get rich quick, perfect scheme out there. And we see when people don't build these room for error strategies into their financial plan, they're looking for ways build to create much success in a short amount of time possible, but that also leads them to getting into very high risk strategy. So yes, there might be a very high limit for them to make a lot of money is also a very high chance they can lose a lot of money. So I think that's something that's important to talk on too. Sometimes financial plans, it could be slow and boring, right? Ryan compound interest things over a period of time to really grow wealth consistently rather than, hey, something bad happened, I need to figure out how to make up as much room as possible in my financial plan in life, in my investing life. I need to go super risky to get there. Probably being super risky is just as much chance there is to possibly get a great return. There's probably just as much chance of losing a lot of money.

Ryan Staton (25:21):

So there's a lot of examples of that in life where I think going back to your original point, mitigating stress and anxiety, I think that's something that mental health has become such a point of emphasis over the past couple of years, especially with a lot of people being cut off from society during covid. And I think that there's a lot of, there's some valid concerns about the relationship that we have with money effects on our health. And so there, there's some connection there. And I think money is a big point of emphasis, a big point of stress and anxiety, and there are so many examples of that. But if we can find ways to reduce that and ultimately in volatile times, which I think we're kind of in the middle of some volatile market of a volatile market I should say in general over the past couple of years.

(26:17):

And I think that can cause a lot of stress and anxiety. There's a lot going on in the world in general. And so some people may look at that and also have that same anxious relationship with money. So how do we combat that, build in that room for error, have some contingencies, have a buffer, maybe not take as much risk if appropriate. And one way that you can avoid that is doing some more comprehensive planning and building those contingencies and building those redundancies like we talked about, the peace of mind and having a financial cushion I think is incredibly powerful. And again, something that ultimately gets overlooked. And we, we've had this instance many times in our practice where we meet with people and they're like, Hey, I have this amount of money in the bank. I feel like that's too much, especially when rates rate environment was much lower.

(27:12):

I'm not earning anything on this money. I feel like I should be doing something more strategically that looks good on paper, earn more on your money market's doing well, that's better than no interest in a certain account that I have. But the reality is that if you flip the script to what's going on today, there is those same folks may be coming back and saying, I don't really want to take this much risk with that money. This is not the rollercoaster I wanted to ride, so to speak. And so that can create some undue stress and anxiety. And so we want to avoid that. We want to make sure that we build an appropriate financial cushion, even if it's boring, even if it doesn't get you excited or become an emphasis at cocktail parties or talking with your friends, it might not be the most exciting thing in the world, but at the end of the day, you can live the other parts of your life unfazed and not with this heavy feeling of what's going on with my portfolio today.

(28:14):

And I think there's certainly power in that. You talked about probabilities and risk and greater return. I didn't talk about this in the article, but there's a really good book, psychology of Money by Morgan Housel that he talks a little bit about card counters and kind of how they approach how they approach that strategy. And so the reality is that in a randomly shuffled deck, car counters don't actually know what's coming, but they have a pretty good idea of what's statistically probable. And so they're placing betts on statistical probabilities, not known certainties. And so the strategy behind this was fascinating to me when I read this point in his book. The fascinating piece of that is that they're betting enough to win because they think they know what hand is going to happen or they have at least an idea of what's more certain. But they bet in their betting strategy is such that they don't ever wipe themselves out, that they don't put so much risk and push so many chips to the middle of the table that they ultimately get wiped out and they walk away with nothing. And so there is some level of conservative posture, if you want to call it that even though they have a pretty good idea of what cards are coming or what might be coming up in future hands, they still kind of have a buffer and a contingency plan involved. And so I found that to be kind of a fascinating point in that even when you think what's going to happen, having that buffer and that backup is ultimately going to keep you in the game. And I made that point earlier,

Devin Walsh (29:48):

Keeping you, that's fine. Sorry. That's really fascinating. I feel like that there with the card counts, we're talking about creating room for error. They know that there's a high likely probability that this next car has come, but they're not a hundred percent sure and they're still building in that

Ryan Staton (30:03):

They still build in a buffer,

Devin Walsh (30:05):

Believe it or not. That's fascinating. Wow.

Ryan Staton (30:07):

Yeah, they're operating in a system where obviously it's kind of a rigged process, so to speak, but there's no, because there is a level of randomness, they don't shuffle the cards, they don't know what's in the deck. There is some level of uncertainty there for them. They can just only operate off of probabilities based on the way that they count cards. And this obviously not advocating for that, but I just thought it was interesting that even in those types of situations where you kind of know what's coming, that you still want to prepare and not overweight yourself in a particular strategy because if you're wrong, which is still possible for those folks, then you can get wiped out. And then the only way for you to get back in the game is to put more money into the pot. And the only way for you to get back to even is to take even more risk.

(31:03):

And so we saw this a lot in the markets where people were taking unnecessary risks, and we don't have to get into all the details on what that looked like, but basically high risk strategies in financial planning. Certainly some of them have their place, but they're not necessary for all of us. And even if you feel like you're behind a little bit, it's not necessary to go out to the ledge of what you're willing to take in terms of risk when it comes to investment or some particular strategy. There's been tons of studies out there that prove that savings rate is always going to outpace rate of return. The more money you save gives you the level of flexibility and a financial cushion, enough of a cushion that you can take some risk, but also ensure that even if those risks don't work out, that you still have some cushion and some money there that could keep you in the game essentially. And I think that's the overarching point here is like there's nothing wrong with risk, but risk has to be intentional in a lot of ways and it can't be done without having a backup plan or having that safety net attached to it.

Devin Walsh (32:16):

Yeah, so true. And to conclude our episode today, like you said, the importance of embracing uncertainty and securing our financial wellbeing and peace of mind. It is so important. And just doing the little things and we're talking about redundancy, redundancy and financial planning and investing saving is so important. And we always say it's a journey, not a competition. We talked about baseball earlier. Every single nine in baseball game is a grind. Every inning is different, every half innings different. Same thing as with financial planning. Every phase of life is different from your early years to your middle years to going into retirement. You think about the journey of living and our financial journey, it goes from all about accumulated wealth and from turning all of our savings and investments into retirement income. Completely different journey at the end. So it really is, it's cliche and everything, but it really is not a sprint, it's a marathon. And it's really kind of looking at the long end of it and kind of getting through each phase and using the strategies there and building around room for error in all aspects of it. So Ryan, thanks for your insights. Great job. Love the article. So thanks everybody for listening in the show notes. We want to have a link to the blog posts so you can kind of read more about it and please make sure to subscribe and we really appreciate. Thanks, Ryan. Great episode today. We look forward to you all listening next week.

Speaker 4 (33:40):

Awesome. Thank you.